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<p class='description'><span>A weblog focused on contemporary poetry and poetics.</span></p>
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Showing posts with label <b>John Nash</b>. <a href="https://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mirrors/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/">Show all posts</a>
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<div class='status-msg-hidden'>Showing posts with label <b>John Nash</b>. <a href="https://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mirrors/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/">Show all posts</a></div>
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<h2 class='date-header'><span>Friday, February 28, 2003</span></h2>

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<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-family: Arial;">Jason Earls asks some
questions. I&#8217;ll offer some responses (if not exactly answers) below.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">Dear
Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">I
have a question concerning found poems.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;
</span>Not too long ago I saw a program about the mathematician John Nash
called "<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/filmmore/pt.html">The
American Experience: A Beautiful Madness</a>" and for a few moments they
flashed some of Nash's (I assume unpublished) postcards across the screen, and
on one of them he had written the phrase:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;
</span>"Consider Beautiful Buddhist number 22*Pi + 4*e which is a little
less than 80" and then another postcard flashed across the screen with the
words: "revenge (justice(mercy(" and some mathematical formulae.
Well, seeing that inspired me to write a weird poem.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>I computed the number he mentioned and
imbedded some of his words and my own words within the decimal expansion (the
formatting will probably be distorted by the time it reaches you)--<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Beautiful Buddhist Number<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>-------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>22*Pi + 4*exp(1) =<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">79.98816569281163218761930431755971344336671\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">516105216(consciousness(6361316651541668267459\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana;">71078834810229487162724120531712347102022298\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">59233(revenge(3423(justice(579662898338955924415\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">98689671068587795739544214273752475012278897\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana;">89472(mercy(479263729178216373344431183064000\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">67997926661501228467353332767299003731684496\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">4568030443(dendrite(08951603(singularity(64610763\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">00147725192693367985172931792264190423325323\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana;">97(horizon(92065205854407230865865085838252516\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana;">60362269199306183899333562196946658053367285\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">526835394443(flamenco
notes(0661978766176537745\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">24992867580687056239054937723201162206847870\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">41801928773876468537321745158546946289979...\<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">Then
I thought, If I were to publish this, would it be considered plagiarism? What
do you think? Should the author cite the source for a "poem" like the
above?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">Outsider
artists: <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">Awhile
back in your blog you did a close reading of John Ashbery.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>This led me to read more of Ashbery's work.
After a while I ended up reading Michael Leddy's article "<a href="http://jacketmagazine.com/17/leddy-ashb.html">Lives and Art: John Ashbery
and Henry Darger</a>" in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><a href="http://jacketmagazine.com/17/index.html">Jacket<span style="font-style: normal;"> 17</span></a></i>. Then, I became very interested in Henry Darger and
other "Outsider" artists and read everything I could find on
them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>Do you know of any poets who would
be considered outsider artists equivalent to Darger?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">One
more thing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>In <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Collected Books of Jack Spicer</i>, p. 380 it says "*Book of
Magazine Verse - Poem 1 of "Two poems for the Nation" and Poem 2 of
"Six poems for Poetry Chicago" are the same. This curious duplication
seems to have been an instance of word for word dictation of the same poem some
days apart." That is very hard for me to believe. Do you think it's true?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: .5in; margin-top: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Verdana;">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana;">Jason<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
&lt;![if !supportLists]&gt;<span style="font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">1)<span style="font: 7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span>&lt;![endif]&gt;<span style="font-family: Arial;">Plagiarism is a wobbly concept at best. In one of her
early books, either <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Studying Hunger </i>or
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Memory,</i> probably the latter,
Bernadette Mayer quotes an entire Jerome Rothenberg poem &#8211; sans linebreaks if I
recall correctly &#8211; as an instance of what she&#8217;s reading. I remember asking
Jerry about that at the time and he was fine with it, saying something like it
&#8220;it&#8217;s not the same poem when it&#8217;s in her work.&#8221; A poet like Jackson Mac Low,
for example, always has notes that detail his sources, perceptible or
otherwise. I don&#8217;t sense that your number above is precisely what Nash had in
mind, even if the math of it proves identical. Rachel Blau DuPlessis wants me
to write a note here about the underworld of other artists who have utilized
the Fibonacci number sequence in their works, such as sculptor Mario Merz or
composer William Duckworth. The strangest in this regard for me is a Danish
poet by the name of Inger Christensen, who in 1981 published a short booklength
poem based on Fibonacci entitled <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Alfabet.
Tjanting, </i>my own work utilizing Fibonacci, was completed in 1980, after
which I turned my attention to composing <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Alphabet</i>*. I didn&#8217;t know about Christensen until I picked up the Susanna
Nied translation, which wasn&#8217;t published until 2000.**<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .25in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
&lt;![if !supportLists]&gt;<span style="font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">2)<span style="font: 7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span>&lt;![endif]&gt;<span style="font-family: Arial;">It depends mostly on how you define &#8220;outsider.&#8221; At
one level, all poets &#8211; even James Merrill (of the Merrill Lynch etc clan) &#8211; are
invariably outsiders, just because we write. But Darger was an escapee from a
&#8220;home for the feeble minded&#8221; who held the same janitorial job for many decades,
spending much of his time at mass when he wasn&#8217;t producing his works &#8211; the
novel is apparently every bit as strange as his watercolor illustrations for
it. There certainly are a lot of poets who live/lived on the edge, either
psychologically, socially or economically &#8211; Emily Dickinson, Hannah Weiner,
John Wieners, Frank Kuenstler, Peter Seaton, Bob Kaufman, Jack Hirschman, even
Charles Bukowski or Julia Vinograd come immediately to mind. <a href="http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mirrors/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2002_09_01_ronsilliman_archive.html%2382269629">Besmilr
Brigham</a>, whom I&#8217;ve written about here, was something of a nomad,
considering that she was a journalist with a family, drifting between </span><st1:state><st1:place><span style="font-family: Arial;">Arkansas</span></st1:place></st1:state><span style="font-family: Arial;">, </span><st1:state><st1:place><span style="font-family: Arial;">Mississippi</span></st1:place></st1:state><span style="font-family: Arial;">, </span><st1:state><st1:place><span style="font-family: Arial;">Texas</span></st1:place></st1:state><span style="font-family: Arial;"> and </span><st1:place><span style="font-family: Arial;">Northern
 Mexico</span></st1:place><span style="font-family: Arial;">. Lorine Niedecker
might be another instance. If we add to that list poets who killed themselves
with drink or drugs, such as Darrell Gray, it gets to be fairly long. One of
the most heartening aspects of poetry is how dramatically democratic it is as
an aesthetic practice. You can have a VP of an insurance company (Wallace
Stevens), lawyer (Brad Leithauser), doctor (William Carlos Williams) and a
schizophrenic (Jimmy Schuyler, Wieners, Weiner) and all can be successful
poets. Some of the latter group can even serve as an inspiration &amp; model
for some of the former. There is simply no barrier. I wish more of life were
like this. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .25in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
&lt;![if !supportLists]&gt;<span style="font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">3)<span style="font: 7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span>&lt;![endif]&gt;<span style="font-family: Arial;">Again, it depends on what you mean by &#8220;true&#8221; and
&#8220;dictation.&#8221; If my memory serves me in this &#8211; I have no way of checking &#8211; the
original <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Book of Magazine Verse </i>published
shortly after Spicer&#8217;s death omitted the terminal period from the second of the
two poems. I recall being surprised at finding it in the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Collected. </i>Even if they are identical as texts, I think that Spicer
is making a Heraclitian point about the same poem not being that if it should
occur in two different contexts. Viz. my discussion of &#8220;<a href="http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mirrors/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2003_02_01_ronsilliman_archive.html%2389637288">Engines</a>&#8221;
on Monday. That poem is a part of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The
Alphabet, </i>except when it isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<br /></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial;">*
Only <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Lit </i>utilizes Fibonacci in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">The Alphabet, </i>and then only in part.
Everything in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Lit </i>is based on the
number 12.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: .25in;">
<span style="font-family: Arial;">**
Even more curious, I later discovered that a linguist I know spent part of her
years growing up as Christensen&#8217;s next door neighbor. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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